Re: FW: Underwater weaponry

[Ryan Pendergast <pender@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

>It would seem for spec ops that the use of special underwater weapons would
>be of great use and importance and therefore be given much attention and
>funding for research and development.  

Underwater dart guns were a "hot topic" during the 1970's in the US and
Europe.  The US Navy deployed at least two different underwater weapons,
one which fired darts and another which fired micro-torpedos.  In Europe,
the HK P11 ZUB was adopted by Italian COMSUBIN combat divers and allegedly
units such as the SBS and German Kampfschwimmers (no idea how to spell
that).  The Soviets developed probably the most advanced underwater weapon,
esentially a modified AK-47 which fired darts from a 26-round magazines.
With the exception of the Russians, most special forces have largely moved
away from these weapons.  The reason for this move is simply that these
weapons do not represent any significant improvement over using a diving
knife to defend oneself.  Their effective ranges and lethality are too
limited.  Plus, "Thunderball" style underwater battles have rarely (if
ever) actually occurred.  


>armed SEAL, Force Recon and the like are emerging out of the water and onto
>the beach with dripping wet M-16s, M-4s, and MP-5s.  How reliable are these
>weapons after a infiltration swim in salt water?  Are there techniques or
>procedures to protect these weapons during the swim and what does it take to
>ready these weapons for use?  Shouldn't they be contained in a water proof
>container and then readied once out of the water or can you SCUBA in and
>emerge out of the water firing your MP-5SD?

The reason they carry standard weapons is because the bad guys are above
the surface, not underwater.  On missions where divers don't expect to
break surface, they still will often carry a submachinegun or carbine on
the off chance that something goes wrong and they are forced to go ashore
(this isn't always true - the SEAL unit that disabled Noriega's yacht
during the invasion of Panama went in with only dive knives and haversacks
of C-4).

As for reliability, most weapons will function fine after submersion.  A
good friend of mine on a fishing trip "caught" a Smith & Wesson 3913 9mm
pistol from the bottom of a river in Alaska.  No telling how long it had
been there but the black plastic grips had turned white.  It was perfectly
functional, though, and he still shoots it today.  Granted, immersion in
salt water is a different beast altogether but provided that weapons are
cleaned adequately after, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.  For units
that do spend an awful lot of time in the ocean with their weapons (i.e.
SEALs) modifications are made to help resist corrosion.  For example, the
SEAL version of the MP5SD3 uses a different suppressor which is constructed
of stainless steel.  The SEAL M60E3's have had a special finish applied to
all the metal parts which helps to quickly shed water once the operator is
ashore.  I'm sure other units have taken similar measures.  In short, most
modern weapons that have been well looked after and loaded with quality
ammunition should be able to fire immediately after breaking the surface.

As for water proof containers, the SEALs did adopt a new dry bag in 1999
which will accomodate any of their weapons with the exception of the M88
.50-caliber rifle.  The bag uses a quick open flap to allow the weapon to
be brought into action quickly and also features an integral air bladder
allowing the user to adjust the bouyancy for the precise depth they will be
swimming at. 

All of the above is just my understanding from reading and hearing
anecdotes.  Some of the others on the list with more experience than myself
might be able to provide a bit more insight.

Ryan